So, a question arises a lot within the intra party spats between the centrists and the left, how left are the democrats internationally? Progressives will argue that they're right wing in Europe, but of course, the centrists think they're plenty left. So...in Europe, how far left are the democrats?
Well, I can't speak for every country, but I have looked at a few in the past, and I would argue that the democrats are CENTRISTS by European standards. Europe seems to have a diverse spectrum of political opinions, ranging from the alt right and fascism, all the way through social democracy, and even, at times, having far leftist parties as well.
To see how this works in practice, let's look at a few examples I'm familiar with.
First, the UK. The UK has two major parties, and a bunch of smallish parties. The two major parties are the conservatives, or the tories, and the labor party. The conservative party has been the largest one in recent decades, and in a lot of ways, the UK has mirrored the US's politics. Instead of Reagan, they got Thatcher. Instead of Clinton, they got Blair, and in 2016, they went in their own "MAGA" style direction with brexit and the like.
However, British politics are a bit different, and I would say the overton window is a bit different. Boris Johnson, for example, seemed like a mixture of both Biden and Trump. Yeah, he had the nativist spin that Trump has, but he also had his own "build back better" style initiatives, and he even called it that, where he did some things with infrastructure and job retraining. It wasn't amazing or anything, but his tenure in office seems to be a weird mix of what I would consider to be Biden and Trump style policies. Like, if you split the difference between them, or did one of those AI generated programs to mix Trump and Biden into one person, you get Boris Johnson. It's kind of weird.
But then you have labor. And labor, to me, actually came off as pretty hard left under Corbyn. Like imagine British Bernie Sanders. That's Jeremy Corbyn. The labor party reminds me more of our greens than they do our democrats. They talked a big game about like all of these measures to create jobs and infrastructure, but people didn't really buy it. it seems like they just werent hitting. A lot of the old labor base went more MAGA as we shifted from unions 50 years ago and people up in scotland to nativism today. So we're seeing a realignment to the far right in a way where a lot of people are shifting from labor to Johnson's nativism. Like really, hate to say it, but a lot of people REALLY dont like immigrants. And that seems to be the overriding concern for a bunch of people. And the left in the UK kind of has the same kinds of issues ours does, where you got all these younger up and coming centrist types living in London who are relatively wealthy and obsessed with scoial justice issues. Like, you've had that strain in labor since Blair in the late 90s, who basically mirrored Clinton's win. So you do have similar paths taken between the US and the UK there.And in recent years, with Corbyn having been exorcised from the party, the labor party is trying to move back to the center.
Still, if I were to give a direct analogue to the third way democrats, I would say the "libdems" are closer. The liberal democrats are a smaller third party that had a lot more support in the past, but collapsed in recent years and now only gets like 4% of the vote. But yeah, the democrats tend to mirror that more than anything, although third wayers do exist within the labour party too and are fighting for control of it. Still, I would say all in all the overton window is a bit to the left of America's. If I had to rate the conservatives on a 7 point likert scale, I'd probably give them like a 5, as they are kind of moderate conservative you dont get here. You get some nativism and nationalism, but you also get some infrastructure and green initiatives too. They're what I'd call center right. Kinda like a fusion of the democrats and republicans. I'd say that labour is more like a 2-3. 2 under corbyn, 3 post corbyn. And then the liberal democrats are 4s. For reference, I'd say the third way dems here are 4s and the republican party is a 6, starting to trend into "7" territory, which isnt good because I deem 1 and 7 rankings to be kind of dangerous extremes that are incompatible with liberal democracy.
This brings us to the next one. France. France has three major factors. They got front nationale, let by marine le pen, daughter of the infamous marie le pen. Basically these are alt right MAGA types. Imagine MTG as a presidential candidate. That's Marine Le Pen. She's so scary that the two other factions ended up forming an uneasy alliance to keep them out of power. They're like a 6.5 on my scale.
The two other factions are Macron's centrist faction. These guys are centrist neolib types, true third wayers. American centrists love him. They're 4s. And then they had a third faction with Melenchon, I think his name was. He seemed to be in charge of some marxist/communist type of party. Looking him up, he seems more socialist, but not radically so. So I'd probably consider him like a 2. With that said, so far, I'd say:
US overton window- 4-6
UK overton window- 3-5
French overton window- 2-6
I mean, in Europe you tend to have a greater spectrum of ideas overall. You got a conservative party, with conservatives as crazy as ours, you got socialists and hardcore progressive types. And then you got moderates in between. I'd say american democrats and their flavor of corporate centrism is more aligned with Europe's center. They're more center than right, but yeah, I'd say that Europe has left wing options that the US doesn't.
With that said, i'd like to focus on one more country, which is going to have elections soonish if I'm not mistaken, this being Germany.
Germany has had a pretty strange path. After WWII, they banned nazi parties. But in recent politics, the AFD is having a meteoric rise, and despite basically being fascist and anti democracy, they're not being dissolved. I do track the german elections for some german friends of mine, and to my knowledge, AFD, the far right fascist, MAGA, alt right type party that I'd consider a 6-7, is in second place.
The party with the most support is the Christian Union party, which has two factions. They're a more bog standard right wing party akin to like...the nikki haley level republicans we have here. You know, establishment, sane, but still kinda evil? Yeah. I'd be inclined to give them a 5 based on my own research, but I've been convinced by a german friend they're probably closer to republicans than i think. So maybe 5.5-6? 5.5. let's say 5.5.
Beyond that, they got several other major parties. You got the FDP. They're kind of libertarianism, or "classical liberal?" Still, they lean kinda ordoliberal in practice, making them relatively moderate. They try to frame themselves as between the Christian Union party and the social democrats, so they're basically extremely enlightened centrist and third wayish. I would actually say democrats are kinda like these guys in a way.
From there, you got the social democrats. So, they're socdems, so like a 3-3.5. You got the greens, who are more like a 2.5. They're more obnoxiously socially progressive and seemed to be doing a lot of that metoo stuff with rammstein last year, although my german friends like them and think they're pretty based. I'd probably be more aligned with the socdems though. The greens kinda have this weird annoying leftist vibe that the social justice types have here while the socdems seem a little more establishmenty? Yeah. I'd probably either support SPD or greens in practice depending on the election cycle and platforms. If I dont just go for the UBI party (yes, they have one, but it's tiny and electorally irrelevant).
Basically, looking it up a bit, SPD basically has its origins as a leftist party that wanted to remain pragmatic, which appeals to me greatly. As you guys know, my own ideology is driven by a balance between ideals and pragmatism. The greens on the other hand, come off as being formed by like social activists and the like and that's why they kinda got that vibe I dont like. Leftist activists can be an annoying bunch at times, and they lack the practicality SPD has. So yeah. I'm definitely more aligned with SPD, even if SPD is maybe going a little too far to my right. Still, they're the closest major party, with the greens being #2.
Then you got "the left." No, that's what it's called. "Die Linke", the left. They're said to be a direct descendant of the communist party of the GDR and are very far left. Like extreme left. They seem popular in Eastern Germany especially. Heck, former East Germany is a hotbed for a lot of political trends related to extremism. They support communists, they support fascists (they're big AFD guys too), and heck, to go into the next party, you got a weird mix of both.
So yeah, this is a new development, but apparently "Die Linke" has had a schism in recent years and you also now got a new party called the "BSW". They seem to be AFD on social issues but Die Linke on economics. So basically this weird nazbol type party, or alternative, what you get from WOTB or Jimmy Dore these days. Ya know, some weird red brown alliance? Yeah. Im not big on them either, but they're what you get when mindless populism runs amok. Think like RFK voters here. They end up being kinda moderate and being this weird alliance of left and right populists who dont know what they're doing.
I guess if you're nostalgic for the old soviet union or GDR, it makes sense though. And if you look at the modern political landscape where some people are very nativist and anti immigration while being very left populist, it makes sense. We could see this taking off in the US I think if we had a multiparty system. In a sense, RFK's coalition seemed similar to what these guys were going for.
And yeah. That's the german political spectrum. Theirs is the most diverse at all, ranging from like 1.5-6.5, getting just about the whole spectrum. Where would the democrats fit into that? Probably with the FDP. Socdems are a bit further left than the democrats ever will be. And republicans are basically Union for the establishment brand and AFD for MAGA.
Bernie supporters are probably mostly socdems and greens, with the more tankie types being linke and the more weirdo WOTB/Jimmy Dore type people being BSW.
But yeah, all of these factions are ignored in the US, so i'd generally say that our politics these days is like FDP vs AFD these days, with SPD and Union supporters existing but largely being suppressed by the more dominant factions of the parties.
As such, where would I classify the democrats by European standards? once again, they're dead center. They're definitely not "right" unless you're like a 1-2 on the spectrum yourself. But they're not left either. They're literally as center of the road as you get.
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