So, interesting debate on reddit, as a question was targetted at the left as to whether they're drawn to their ideals for moral reasons or for their own self interest. And as you guys would know, the answer is both. My views ARE in my self interest. You can't detach self interest from morality. Morality is the rules that govern how we should act, and there's nothing wrong with humans making morals that serve human interests. if anything, that's the freaking point. A moral system that does not do this is basely, arbitrary, and enforced on us without good reason. it's the morality of divine command theory and other authoritarians. And to me, that's a perversion of real morality. Real morality, on humanist principles, has some level of self interest to it. And my appeal to people to accept my morality is that...it normally serves their interests. My morals would serve the interests of the bottom 80% of society. It might come at the expense of the top 20%, but given they reap the lion's share of rewards in our society, I'm fine with some redistribution from the very top to everyone else. Some may not like it, but oh well, I really don't care. Generally I would argue that in advocating for left wing ideals, I'm doing so on the basis that it benefits YOU. And yes, it benefits me as well. I wouldnt be for these ideas if they didn't benefit me or came at my expense. But in a democracy, I'd expect the majority who does benefit to outvote the minority that does not, and if everyone voted in their actual rational self interests, we would all be better off.
Of course, some leftists seemed appalled by this, claiming that those who do not do things purely for moral reasons devoid of self interest can't be trusted. Well, let me put it this way, this is why conservatives think left wing ideas dont work. Because they look at humans as self interested and that we need a system to motivate people in their self interests. And to some extent...I agree. I admit I diverge from conservatives a bit in my implementation of this. They seem to view humans acting in their self interests as evil as well, since they have this weird christian self denial thing going on, but I tend to embrace the selfishness. There's nothing wrong with being a little selfish. It's only wrong when that selfishness is to such a degree it leads to a worse world for all. But given I see some level of rules and advocacy for left wing collectivist ideals to serve individual self interests, I don't see the dichotomy some do. Which is why I'd argue my left wing ideals work, while a lot of more extreme ones dont.
Because, at the end of the day, humans are self interested. And if you want to impose a moral system on people, but people dont just do things out of the goodness of their heart, and need to be pressured to do something, and unless you give positive incentives based in self interest to do so, you get force. Which is why leftists end up going down the path of authoritarianism. Because their system destroys the capitalist incentive system, not merely modifies it like I want to, but DESTROYS it and expects it to be replaced by people behaving in a way they generally would not, and because that does not work, you get raw force picking up the slack. So a system in which people are subtlely or not so subtlely guided to take on unpleasant work is replaced by a system that forces you to do so at gunpoint. And rather than wearing down the negative sides of those incentives over time through reform like I desire to do, they just end up blowing up the system, and then you get something worse.
And of course, the idea that people wouldnt just give up their interests to serve the collective? These guys cant stand that, which is why in practice these guys end up just executing or imprisoning anyone who doesnt think exactly like they want you to.
So yes, I think, at the end of the day, some moralizer who has some idea that they know what's good for others and expect them to act perfect by their moral system is the root of authoritarianism. This is true whether it comes in the form of the christian form of god, or from radical leftists. That mindset is dangerous and best off being avoided.
I know that this answer would likely piss off many leftists in that thread (some have argued that lefties like me are no better than conservatives, or that if we had our way we would just sit around all day and do nothing, which I'm not opposed to), well, they can cope. Because honestly, who would act against their self interests? Who would advocate for a morality that does not serve them? Brainwashed and ignorant people, that's who. I mean, no one should be forced to do something they dont wanna do unless there is some really good reason justifying it. For me, liberty is an important part of any moral system, and freedom is an important moral goal in itself. Liberty allows people to pursue their own interests and decide what's good for them. And while I fully acknowledge the excesses of base "right libertarianism" with its extreme focus on individualism and selfishness, I believe my own proposed compromises are adequate to overcome those flaws.
You see, when I came over to the left, in retrospect, I never stopped being a libertarian. I just developed a more sophisticated idea of what liberty really is and how to actually achieve it properly without the downsides that lead to a real world tragedy of the commons. Sometimes it is in our self interest to work together and pursue collectivist policies, but at the end of the day, the purpose of doing so should be to pursue our larger interests, whatever they may be. I never stopped being an individualist. Again, just a more sophisticated idea of what that is.
