So I know I said I wasnt gonna do these any more, but I didnt have much else I wanted to watch tonight and I ended up subjecting myself to the new jubilee in which an only fans model debated 20 anti sex work people. And while I kinda went in expecting to agree with the sex worker, it ended up being cringe AF. Still, there is a lot I wanted to discuss from this, so here we go. I wont debate the claims directly, I kinda just wanted to get into what I found so objectionable, so let's get to it.
So...first my position on sex work. As long as it's between voluntary consenting adults, i'm okay with it. I don't care. I mean, I aint the kinda guy who would pay for an only fans, but I dont really judge people who do. Nor do I judge the sex workers. Would I date a sex worker? Probably not. But eh, if you choose that for yourself, well, that's on you.
My stance on this is pretty libertarian overall. And it's a bit different than say, my position on gambling. I was more opposed to gambling mostly because I see it as big corporations exploiting people with potential addiction problems and convincing them to give away their life savings for a chance at getting more money, only for the odds to be statistically against them. But with sex work, and looking at stuff online, I dont see those kinds of downsides.
And as far as the work, my biggest complaint is the complaint from capitalism and economic coercion. I think some people might do sex work just to pay the bills in our capitalist society, and that can lead to coercive situations. Of course, that is more an argument against capitalism than sex work. And that's an argument that came up. The model basically seemed to imply that sex work is no different than any other job. Youre forced to use your body either way. And I would agree. Yes, sex work is more intimate in a way, but a lot of the weird moralizing here was kind of irrational and rooted in like, christian purity culture. I would kind of agree that there isnt a GREAT deal of difference between say, doing sex work, and selling your body moving large objects by hand in a warehouse. If anything, a lot of those kinds of jobs and the repetitive motions force you to use your body to the point of it being detrimental to one's health, but hey, we act like it's totally different. or what about people who work with toxic substances? or other health risks? We do it all the time. And even with OSHA, stuff isnt always safe. How often do you hear these class action lawsuits on TV about how workers doing such and such are now subject to cancer or long term illnesses like mesotheleoma due to work they did in the past? It happens. Remember guys, there is no dignity in work, despite all the weird moralizing we have in our culture. I get that rather than being screwed metaphorically, that sex work is being screwed literally, but at the end of the day, that's the real nature of work. You're being used by someone else, and at the end of the day, they're screwing you. Sex work just makes it more in your face.
If anything, I've seen sex workers on reddit in the past claim they feel more respect working in their field than they do working an actual job. In their sex work, they can reject clients and refuse to do anything they're not comfortable with. In a traditional boss, the boss owns your time, micromanages you, gives you little freedom or authority, and fires you if you dont live up to expectations. So...again, is sex work really worse?
I get it, sex is 'sacred", and even with me, I'd be honest, I'd want an intimate relationship with a partner, and i wouldnt want a partner who does that sorta thing. I am in favor of exclusivity. However, I also recognize this is a personal preference. And my attitude is people should do what they want. Again, as long as it's between consenting adults, I don't really care all that much. If you dont like the other person's habits or life style, don't date them. What can I say?
With that said, I do wanna move on to other topics with this. The next is this weird feminist mindset the sex worker had. I honestly thought I'd go into this agreeing with the sex worker and dealing with a lot of weirdo puritanical Christians, but this sex worker...has a weird feminist streak. And I mean that in a bad way. Like kinda the "man hating" feminists who tend to be all for women rights but tend to #### on men and blame everything on them. They were saying things like the reason people hate only fans is because women can control their own bodies, and there was never this much pushback against, say, pornhub. In reality, I think the times are just different. We millennials who are a bit older at this point are a lot more libertarian than younger folk. Younger folk seem weirdly puritanical these days. And in some ways, I can respect that. They dont drink or have sex much, they dont do drugs, they're mostly addicted to smartphones and the like, but they're all lonely, all this gender relations crap between the woke left and the alt right has led to a weird generation of people who are at each others' throats, and a lot of people are getting puritanical over like, only fans and online porn, where they strangely start agreeing with christian boomers. Meanwhile we middle aged people at this point are like the only chill well adjusted people left. And everything with this chick is "it's about them wanting to control our bodies." Maybe that is true of the alt right and their more weird, in your face brand of conservatism that is, quite frankly, closer to fascism than the conservatism I grew up with, but a lot of it really is just...christian purity culture. And that seems to be where most people are arguing from in this debate. So it just comes off as her tilting at windmills with the THEY WANNA CONTROL OUR BODIES crap. Not saying it doesnt happen, and I aint saying that christian purity culture isnt misogynistic AF in its own way, but yeah, it just rubbed me the wrong way.
What REALLY rubbed me the wrong way was her saying that there is no real male loneliness epidemic and that "incels" are just losers. I guess it depends how you define them. if you mean the bitter ###holes we typically call incels, yeah, they just hate women and they are very bitter and miserable people. Kinda like the opposite side of the coin from the radfems on the other side of the aisle. But I do think we have a bit of a crisis on our hands. I get it, men arent entitled to sex, i aint saying that they are, but if many of them, especially younger ones, are unhappy then that's potentially a social issue. And when you start bashing men like me who dont date, and just call them "losers" and crap, it's like 'well screw you." Again, you wanna hate the actual "incels" who go on screeds about how much women suck, go for it, but I kinda dont like being treated as collateral damage in this weird gender war these guys are having. As far as I'm concerned, there are systemic problems here, and this whole weird feminism vs manosphere crap is contributing to it. I've pointed out for a while idpol is unhealthy AF for younger people and is screwing up their dating habits in their prime dating years. And that's a social problem. Male loneliness and joblessness is an issue. That said, women also have issues too, I dont deny that. But what pisses me off is when these feminists get all up on their soapbox when it comes to womens' issues then they turn into LITERAL FRICKING CONSERVATIVES on mens issues. And by that, I mean, lectures about personal responsibility, being called a loser, not wanting to admit there are issues on the other side. And yeah, this chick is REALLY toxic with this. Lets just say if I was into only fans, I would NOT be subscribing to this chick after listening to her views on this stuff. Because it's clear she wouldnt respect me, and I would not wanna patronize someone like that. I mean I'm not Lindsey Graham where I get off on being degraded (see TYT's Closetocracy on that one). Of course I dont do that. I'm just saying, if I did, yeah no, other fish in the sea. She aint special and her attitude is crap.
Another topic that came up was that of marriage. And of course, the purity culture people see marriage as sacred, and the sex worker was going on about how marriages are often abusive and toxic, there's a lot of cheating (a lot of her clients apparently are married men), there's power dynamics, women use their sexuality to control men into being productive members of society, etc. And she has a point. I mean, I still kind of tend to lean toward being more on the romantic side of things with marriage and all despite my libertarian stance, but if anyone could make an argument against that, it's this. And she did raise good points to some degree.
Anyway, with that said, the debate as a whole was a crapshow. Obviously I dont agree with the purity culture people on much at all in terms of wanting to limit or restrict behavior. At the same time, I didnt really appreciate this chick's feminist views, boiling everything down to men wanting to control her sexuality (I mean maybe the alt right does but purity culture is a but more complex than that) and basically going on a rampage against men to the point that she was basically calling people like me "losers." Like screw you, you're not much of a prize yourself. I wouldnt date this chick even if she asked, because again, I dont date sex workers or want emotional intimacy from them. They make life choices that, while I'll defend their ability to do it, dont really jive with my personal sexuality which is more on the purity culture side of things.
And that's kind of an important distinction for me. Like...being raised somewhat in a purity culture style environment, i PERSONALLY have views that lean more on the conservative side of things as far as my own dating preferences go. On the other hand, being libertarian, permissive, and ex Christian, I'm fine with people not believing in that stuff and if they wanna do that stuff fine. Unlike this chick's weird rants, Im not interested in controlling anyone. You do you. I just get kinda pissed off when people get soapboxy and start calling people "losers." Ya know? So yeah, it's a weird intersection. Like Im basically a libertarian moderate on this issue, and I tend to despise the whole idpol thing and this chick was laying on the idpol THICK. I dont think women like this realize how much it alienates a lot of male allies when they start talking like this, because it does.
Still, I agreed with her more than the purity culture people, I just thought her opinions on the male loneliness epidemic were trash.
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