So, the Labor party has fallen on hard times. And while I'm not from the UK and am a neophyte in looking at UK politics, I've seen a bunch of craplibs talking about this topic recently and spreading their "ermahgerd too far left, isn't Biden bae?" garbage, so I wanted to discuss a bit about what seems to be the problem after I looked at about a dozen articles/videos (combined between the two). Basically, I want to diagnose what I think the problems are.
To some extent, the situation in the UK looks similar to the US with the republican/democratic parties
Historically, the labor party was pretty popular up North and in Scotland, whereas the conservatives were good in the south, around London. However, lately, there seems to have been somewhat of a realignment. Much like the blue wall in the US, the "red wall" is quickly falling in the north of the UK, and with it, the labor's coalition is imploding. At the same time, labor is making inroads around London with young college educated professionals, similar to the suburbanites in the democratic party, but it just isn't enough.
This leads to a massive cultural issue with the party. In some ways this is a problem of young vs old. The young people lean labor, but the older working class is starting to shift conservative, often saying that labor no longer represents them. A lot of them don't necessarily like Johnson or the conservatives from what I can tell, but the labor party just is not connecting.
At the same time, the two parts of the coalition just want different things. Labor is trying to triangulate but it is just leading to a muddled message. What the young professional class wants isn't what the older conservative voters want and there's a mismatch. Trying to gain both they end up alienating people from both camps.
There seem to be undercurrents of cultural tensions and nationalism
Part of the problem seems to be that the labor party is going way too far left on social issues in particular. Much like the US there is a bit of a culture war going on, and the labor party does have a bit of a social justice problem. Some of them are for open borders and letting immigrants in and giving them free healthcare and this does not seem to connect with voters.
A lot of the people leaving the party are becoming more nationalistic and do not want such things. Moreover, Brexit seems to be a big issue in a lot of voters' minds. And given that old people vote and young people don't (much like the US), and there's a huge divide there, a lot of older people are just being repelled from the labor party. Perhaps labor can do better in 20-30 years, but as of now, they're getting destroyed.
Brexit in particular seems to be a big thing, and labor just isn't connecting to voters on it. They're muddling their message, and this is alienating a lot of people.
Do they go too far left on economics?
This is where things get very complicated but I'm going to say yes...but also no. The actual issues labor stands for are often very popular. But, somewhere, the messaging gets lost.
Here's the thing, Corbyn and Stermer are WAAAAY to the left of the democrats in the US. They sound like Howie Hawkins. That's the best way I can describe it. Corbyn in 2019 had a manifesto which came off sounding like this massive progressive wish list. He promised to expand the NHS, create a green new deal, and focus on labor. he also had some odd proposals there that seemed out of place like free broadband.
The thing is, this didn't seem to connect to people. While the issues themselves seem popular, the labor people seem crap at marketing them. To be honest, their messaging is too far left. These guys are outright SOCIALIST. Like, Howie Hawkins "we must destroy capitalism" style socialist. Their messaging is off, and I can see how it wouldn't connect. It doesn't even connect with me and I'm left of democrats. You know how I rip the far left for purity testing and pushing tons of wishlists and obnoxiously unrealistic ideas? That's labor. They propose tons of fixes, but at the end of the day they seem to cost a lot of money, and they dont connect to the peoples' lives involved. This is actually why I've been going to a SLIGHTLY more moderate direction while keeping my progressive street cred. You can't outright talk about abolishing capitalism and socialism and blah blah blah without turning people off. And while I would vote for a labor type candidate it's like my green vote. I'm not really hardcore on what the green party is selling, I just tolerate them over the democrats.
The thing is they need a more pointed approach that does a better job marketing proposals in a way that doesn't alienate people.
More on the socialism thing...
Apparently Corbyn did stuff like outright praise and defend Hugo Chavez and the like.I mean, this guy is sounding more and more like my commie friends the more I listen to him. That stuff doesn't connect to people. It's part of that same outrage culture, getting riled up about everything, sticking to principles wildly out of the mainstream on cultural issues, and not picking your battles. He literally is too far left for the average voter. This is not to say labor should abandon a progressive agenda mind you. I don't think actual right wing economics would be popular in the UK. I mean, I know Thatcher was deeply divisive especially among the people now defecting to the conservatives. But they need to shift more to the center culturally and perhaps change their messaging a bit.
Their leaders suck
Look, I'm not in the UK bubble so I can't give you details, but for some reason Corbyn and Stermer are just....alienating people. I can't even tell you exactly why. Even the people over there who I've lurked upon aren't giving solid reasons. But it really does seem to in part be a marketing problem. The leadership isn't sticking to their guns on issues that matter, they're kind of going far left on issues that aren't popular. They have a decent platform IMO but they just aren't marketing it well. And given how many voters like Brexit and some level of social conservatism and nationalism, the culture clash is just...not...going well for them.
So where can labor go from here?
I don't know, this isn't my circus, they aren't my monkeys, so to speak. Honestly, I would drop the cultural crap. I would tone down the socialist rhetoric. I would fine tune the platform and make a pointed case for why this improves the lives of the people there. I would just follow public opinion on Brexit maybe. But even then, they might be in a tough place.
Again, the problem is, much like the democrats here, they triangulate. If they move toward the center, they might lose the left, if they run left, they might lose the center. I do think they are a bit too far left in SOME ways, but it's mostly a rhetorical issue and a marketing issue. It seems to be people just don't believe labor stands for them any more, and the leaders suck, and they're vague on issues, and play both sides, and no one knows what they stand for.
Are the democrats any better?
This is where I'm gonna rip the craplibs here in the states again, but no. The democrats here, despite being more moderate, have the same problem. They triangulate. They get bogged down in cultural crap. Once reliable democratic rust belt places in the "blue wall" are trending red, democrats are winning more among upper class suburbanites focused on cultural issues. The cultural issues are driving some people out of the party, while bringing others in. They don't have a solid message that resonates.
The only real difference is that labor is further left. Which, in this case seems to complicate my analysis. I really believe a coherent economic platform that resonates would actually save the democrats here and if the democrats pushed a simple message that would improve the lives of every day Americans, that we would do better.
But, here's the thing. Labor is LEFT. Not center like the democrats, but LEFT. Far left. Left of me. Like Howie Hawkins style left. But, that might be the problem. They might be a bit too far left, offer progressive wish lists that seem muddled and unrealistic. And then on cultural issues, which are salient there as they are here, labor struggles hard. It is possible the problem really is the cultural stuff. Brexit seems to be the big thing on everyone's mind in the UK and labor just...didn't even have a solid position on it. Their social progressivism didn't go over well for people who wanted nationalism. I guess it shows that for many, cultural issues really do take priority over economic issues. But, perhaps the left is losing the culture war.
A common trend, debunking the craplibs, that I've seen in many articles, comes with a warning. This can happen here. The democrats are doing good now, but ONLY because they had a massive backlash to Trump. And even then, that only BARELY won them the election. The democratic position is fragile, and while the democrat's obsessiveness with vote blue no matter who combined with hatred of trump has caused enough party discipline to hold it together, barely, that coalition is in the verge of imploding like the labor party.
Most articles pointed this out. The US situation is precarious, and it very well could implode here too. And perhaps not even a strong economic message could save it. While I believe here in the US, that it can help, in the UK, who are way to our left, it doesn't seem to be working. Perhaps defending the NHS is a lot less popular if you already have it, than if you're fighting for it. And I've discussed how jobs programs don't go well with me, a lot of that stuff doesn't always translate well into "well how does this help ME in particular?" Which is why I go the UBI route instead. Not even the UK has that, and I know UK kind of has crap safety nets that are unpopular so perhaps that could be part of what they need?
Either way, it seems like the big elephant in the room seems to be the popularity of nationalism and how most of the public, both in the US and Europe, are way more socially conservative than the idiocy of the far left. People don't go for these self righteous displays of outrage, and the virtue signalling just doesn't land. People want policy, and to some extent, in the UK at least, they like their culture and wanna defend it. That seems to be something that comes up regularly in analyses of how the UK politics are going. People just like the conservatives and brexit and what they're selling, while the labor message just isn't connecting. It actually seems to have little to do with economics. It just proves that even a left wing economic message won't resonate if the party is too far left on cultural issues.
And given my own ranting on here, I definitely believe the democrats go too far left on cultural issues and that's driving a lot of conservatism and trump support here. If the left just toned stuff down, took a more "libertarian" approach, and didn't feed the right wing trolls, perhaps they would be popular. But all of this self righteous virtue signalling and perpetual outrage culture isn't.
Idk. I'm just an American trying to get a handle on this. To be fair I could be missing something here. Even the people in the UK have no clue what's going on, and people are often vote with emotions more than rationality. But something seems seriously wrong with how labor markets itself, as does the democrats in the US.
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