So tonight we had the first republican debate....without Trump. And...it was...shall I say, almost glorious. Without our illustrious frontrunner, who is facing even MORE charges tomorrow and will be arrested again (still hoping for that mug shot, they did Guiliani today), the debate was, shall we say, mostly SANE. The feeling in the room (other than that one nutcase, who I will discuss later) seemed to be one of a party that was over Trump, and who wanted to go back to debating substantive issues. This does not mean I agree with ANY of these candidates. I am liberal through and through these days, and I largely felt like they were full of crap in bashing Biden on the economy, but they seemed less sane and rabid than the republican standard bearers of today. It reminded me more of the conservatism when I was young during the Bush era, instead of the rabid batcrap insanity that we're dealing with today. If most of these guys got elected, I would actually feel like they wouldn't be a treat to democracy, and I would happily return to voting third party in an effort to shift the democrats left. Without the threat of Trump, it's like there would be nothing tying me to the current democratic party and its movement. Heck, if some of these guys got elected, I've even tempted to say the two parties aren't that different from one another. With that said, let's discuss the debate as a whole.
Winners: Chris Christie and Mike Pence
The winners of the debate in my opinion were Chris Christie and Mike Pence.
Chris Christie got into several spats with the big loser, Vivek Ramaswamy, and I loved how he started going on about he's like a chatGPT bot personified and how he was completely and utterly unqualified for office. Chris Christie in general offered a strong performance, in which he ripped trump to shreds, and his stand in, Ramaswamy, not doing much better.
Still, despite offering a strong debate performance, I'm not sure that he is what the modern republican party wants. He's basically the kind of conservative I am as a liberal. Someone who is moderate and would work with democrats and compromise. He was the republican governor of a blue state after all. And honestly? there isn't much functionally different between him and a centrist democrat. maybe hes a little more conservative, sure, but there is that weird middle ground where neoliberal democrats and liberal conservatives start meeting in the middle and if it came down to Christie vs Biden, I wouldn't really see a ton of difference and would probably vote green.
But...let's face it. The republican party has gone in the direction of extremism. Trump is dominating the current voter base by a massive margin. Ramalamadingdong (Ramaswamy) and DeSantis are vying for #2, and everyone else is irrelevant. The party very obviously is leaning toward the extremes and I'm not even sure that it can be saved. Still, based on the merits, I have to say Christie offered a valid alternative to the modern republican standard bearers.
But if someone has more conservative values, well, I would say Mike Pence did pretty good. he was the second guy who I would say won. As a liberal I'm more cheering on Christie, but if I were still conservative, Pence would be my guy. He has that old school conservatism that feels more and more like a thing of the past. He's a fundie christian, but he's also PRINCIPLED. he actually stood up to Trump on January 6th, and he also has an impressive record, which he stood on. Given the lack of ideological diversity on issues on the right, I mean, I think Pence is the strongest vision of that that isn't COMPLETELY insane. It's sad I'm actually praising a fundie christian and the vice president of the traitorous one, but here we are. Trump has broken the overton window so bad I'm actually praising the fundie christian of being "sane."
Oh, and Pence also made vivek look like an idiot too. It is was quite clear he didn't know what he was talking about and pence showed him just how inexperienced he was.So yeah.
As a liberal, if I had to vote in this primary, I'd go christie. As an ex conservative, if I put my conservative thinking cap back on, I'd vote for Pence. Let me just say that was how I read the room after this debate.
Hung in there: Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis
With the winners out of the way, let's discuss the ones who kinda sorta hung in there. I think Nikki Haley had a pretty strong showing, with strong answers (for republicans) on abortion and foreign policy, and she also joined in on the dogpile of making Ramaswampy (yeah I'm being cheeky with the nicknames tonight, F that guy) look like an inexperienced idiot. Given she barely has any support, I think that simply holding your own elevates you. I don't think she's anyone's first choice, but a second or third? Yeah. If I were still a republican I'd probably consider her my second behind mike pence at this rate.
The other "hung in there" candidate for me was DeSantis. Now, given Haley's relative position in the race, this was a good thing. But for DeSantis? He's like vying for 2nd with Ramaswamy. And while he had some standout answers, like no more lock downs or whatever, the only things that differentiated him from the pack were trying to be a hardliner and as David Pakman pointed out as I was watching him, that he seemed to yell all the time, eh....not the best debate performance. I mean he kept himself relevant, but he just didn't stand out at all. If he wasn't already second, he would be in the third batch of candidates I'm going to talk about. So this is a de facto loss for him. He's in a position where he doesn't need to break out, he needs to WIN, GAIN GROUND, STAND OUT FROM THE PACK. And he just...hung in there...with the pack. So, I don't think that he had a particularly strong performance.
Who were they again?: Tim Scott, Doug Borgum, Asa Hutchinson
These guys are de facto losers. None of them have support, and none of them stood out at all. In a crowded pack, you need to stand out on the stage. None of these guys particularly did. I mean, I guess Tim Scott KINDA did, I remember him telling his story about growing up in poverty and him circlejerking american dream nonsense. But virtually everything he said was just bog standard republican talking points that blended into the background. The only thing I recall about Doug Borgum is that he ran very strongly in a liberal anti trump direction, the same as christie, but given christie was there, he just didn't stand out either. I can't even remember anything Asa Hutchinson said, that's how boring that guy was. Of course that also could've been david pakman talking through his sections to some extent too.
Ya know? These guys were like the lincoln chafees and jim webbs of 2016, or in 2020, the likes of howard schultz, or mike bloomburg or some random governor or mayor you never heard of. They just didn't stand out AT ALL. And given its a crowded field, either you make a case for yourself that differentiates yourself, or I have to ask 'why are you even here?" And that's how I felt about this batch of guys.
Big loser: Vivek Ramaswamy
Vivek Ramaswamy did stand out to me, but not in a good way. This guy is inexperienced, and he's a psycho. He always had the most extreme and hardline positions, the dude talked about wanting to pardon trump if convicted, and his lack of depth on issues like foreign policy was astounding. And he got BODIED by several much more experienced and polished candidates. The general vibe from him is he was that inexperienced kid who had no clue what he was saying, and the more experienced people were telling him to shut up and sit down and go back to the kiddie table.
Yet...I look on the internet, and people think he WON? WHAT?! I admit, I'm out of touch with the GOP these days. I mean, even when I TRY to put my GOP thinking cap back on, I mean, look at who I like, Chris Christie? Mike Pence? Nikki haley? Yeah, losers who are barely registering in the polls at all. But my own conservative mindset was one of dinosaurs, back when conservatives wanted to conserve the status quo, and wanted to govern effectively, and things like political experience mattered. That stuff DOESN'T matter in a modern political environment, and the fact that most conservatives want to vote for candidates who have zero political experience and who say batcrap insane things shows how far that party has fallen from grace.
I don't even agree with conservatism any more. The second these guys STARTED going that way, it caused me to reevaluate the entire ideology where I ended up leaving it and becoming a liberal. But that doesn't mean that there aren't republicans who I'd respect more than others. And honestly? There are some republicans on that stage who if they won, I could live with the result. Note that none of them are what I'd want, but I could deal with it.
But when I see this guy, I see a nutcase. A young, charismatic nutcase. He has no experience, no qualifications, he has no idea what he's talking about, and his ideas are INSANE. Like at one point he talked about how people born in this country should have to pass citizenship tests to become citizens like immigrants do. I also remember previously people saying he wanted to raise the age to vote to 25. He's an illiberal authoritarian nutcase in my opinion. He always had the most extreme, off the wall positions, and maybe that appeals to modern conservatives, but if so, that tells me that the traditional republicans have definitely lost the party. And that is scary. We're literally watching a realignment into fascism if that's the case, and that's NOT good, that's the result we should be trying to avoid if anything.
Principled conservatives, ya know, old school ones who actually still CARE about democracy, should be opposing candidates like Trump and Ramaswamy as if they were the strawman they thought obama was. Ya know, that socialist dictator who would take over the country and destroy it. Because these guys would. Even desantis is a threat, but even he comes off looking relatively sane here.
As an ex right winger, to any republicans who still have a spine and some principles and care about democracy and the constitution and "good old american values", I have to say: TAKE YOUR PARTY BACK FROM THESE NUTCASES, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. I have to admit, this isn't my problem any more, it's not my circus, it's not my monkeys, I left in 2012, I'm not coming back to the right, but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TAKE YOUR PARTY BACK FROM TRUMP AND THOSE WHO FOLLOW HIM. He is a demagogue, he is dangerous, and so is Ramaswamy.
DNF: Donald Trump
Trump is the frontrunner, he didn't so how, and he decided to do a circlejerk softball interview with Tucker Carlson instead. I have not watched it yet, although if I do, and it actually has anything worth talking about, I'll discuss that too, but let's face it, nothing else trump does or says has positive value, so why should I even bother for the most part? I also think trump is a nut, I also think that he's dangerous, and I don't think he has much worth talking about. Trump's general level of intelligence is too low for this blog, which is why i barely mention him and when I do it's with complete and utter disdain as if I'm treating him like a child. Because he's just a giant manchild. A 70 something year old baby. And honestly, the GOP should've thrown him to the curb the way the establishment tried to do with Ramaswamy tonight.
Trump is also arrogant. He is so far ahead he thinks he has this wrapped up and doesn't even think he has to debate. First of all because he's an illiberal butthole who doesnt believe in debating his opponents, and two, because he would probably get ganged up on and that would make him look bad. And given he is the frontrunner and he is that arrogant, he took the gamble that he can just take his support base with him and do a softball interview instead and how followers will tune in to that and not the debate.
It's possible this will work given the cultish appeal and the pull that he has, but it could also backfire. I mean, normally Im fighting to get people represented in debates and giving them more air time, and here this guy is in the ultimate position of privilege and he just goes "yeah no not gonna debate"? Yeah, bye felicia! We saw the result of that. I mean, I just saw a potential glimpse at a post trump republican party, and I like what I see. I see sane people who I might disagree with strongly, but who I can at least respect. I see the republican party of my youth, before the tea party and trump ruined it. Not that that's my thing any more, but I feel like if we go back to that and a sense of normalcy, that's a good sign. And that could also put a fire under the democrats to do better too. You think we LIKE Joe Biden? Hillary Clinton? God no. We only vote for those guys at this point because the right has gotten so scary that we feel like we have to JUST TO PRESERVE democracy. Honestly? I struggle to see much of a difference between the centrist faction of the democratic party, and that of the GOP. The differences are minimal and it's like voting between coke and pepsi.
And it's possible this debate might be a shift toward that reality. Perhaps trump is shooting himself in the foot by not debating. maybe once the show is no longer about him, the world will finally move on, and we can finally come back to sanity. One can hope. Honestly, I wish this is what we did in the first place. As I said in 2016, the dude thrived on drama and controversy, and was a giant troll, and the way to make him go away is not to feed the donald. So if donald wants to NOT debate, and the GOP race becomes NOT about him, that's the best outcome.
As long as that fricker Vivek Ramaswamy doesn't take his place. Or DeSantis to a lesser degree.
Conclusion
Honestly, this has been the best GOP debate I've watched in like, over a decade. Since at least 2012. it was mostly civil, and the one guy who was an A-hole got his butt unceremoniously handed to him by a group of experienced politicians who actually kinda sorta knew what they were talking about. It felt like a blast from the past, and seeing these guys in charge of the GOP make me feel much less scared for the future.
Heck, I feel such a different vibe from the civil and relatively moderate debate that we had that I would almost like to offer a proposition to the right. You dump trump, and dont replace him with someone like ramaswamy or desantis....and you push an old school conservative candidate, and I'm just gonna say it, I'm less inclined to vote for Biden in the general. I can't guarantee I won't, as there are SOME positive aspects to Biden that I like, but let's just say the vast majority of the guy's appeal is "he's not trump", and a lot of us on the left have principles, and would like to vote based on them again, without threatening to implode democracy.
Currently, if Trump and Biden are the nominees, I'd say 80% chance I vote for Biden. But say it's Biden vs Pence or Haley or Christie....eh....that chance drops to like 20-30%. I mean, I like build back better and I like the child tax credit, and i like student debt forgiveness, but I'm going to be honest, I feel like we should be doing so much better than these half baked band aid programs. And given I like candidates like Williamson and West over Biden, let's just say I might be inclined to vote for them. Just gonna throw that out there.
Of course, with my luck, it's possible the entire GOP base just tuned out and are gonna support their fuhrer no matter what he does or doesnt do. In which case we're screwed.
Still, this debate was a nice look at a potential GOP without trump.
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