One thing that annoys me about leftists is whenever people mention they're on the left, they love to get in a you know what measuring contest with people over how left they are. And at this point, I'm just gonna tell these people the truth. No one cares, but you guys. When we talk about the political left in America, that includes pretty much everyone up to and including Bill Clinton. Is that a sad reality? yes. Am I significantly left of bill clinton? Yes. Am I a "leftist"? No.
The fact is, in western nations, liberals ARE the left. And by liberals i mean reformist capitalists. I admit the more moderate wing of the "left" is actually quite conservative, but the more left wing of liberalism, ie, social democracy and its derivatives (including social libertarianism/human centered capitalism) are pretty progressive. And that's what my goals are, progressivism, not revolution.
The fact is, what "leftists" call left is what we call "the far left." Ie, that dark place where Simba isn't allowed to go. Because Stalin and Mao live there and they wanna get another purge going.
I mean, really. It's not worth getting in a you know what measuring contests with leftists. being more left isnt better. Sometimes being too left is worse. Because you replace practicality with ideological brainrot.
Really, I cant stand the far left. I mean, they're pretty much about as detestable for me as neolibs. Keep in mind my "enlightened centrist" status on the left. Too liberal for the leftists, too left wing for the liberals. And I tend to strongly dislike both factions at this point.
But yeah. These leftists like to come along and say "no one is left but them." Okay, so what are we. "Liberal". Okay, and yeah, whats wrong with that? other than potentially being pigeon holed into being a literal bill clinton supporter.
I mean, you guys do realize liberalism is a broad ideology that ranges literally from bill clinton on one end to the likes of Bernie on the other end, right? And before you claim him as a leftist, his policies are just social democracy and aligned with my views mostly. So...what is leftism other than weird ideological gatekeeping and purity testing?
Anyway, i do wanna respond to some comments I saw on a thread about this. The OP basically said:
If you don't support the liberation of all peoples, you're not a leftist, you're a liberal
Followed by:
Palestine is dividing the left? No, it's defining the left, and you're not on it.
And yeah, I kinda hate this crap. Because I dont see this as a defining issue at all. By "left" we mean political coalition ranging from liberalism to what these weirdos call leftism. And then they're just like "BuT BuT yOuRe NoT rEaLlY lEfT!!!11!" No one cares dude, no one cares. You're that annoying "well ackshully" guy who is taking a broadly understood definition and gatekeeping it around your pet cause. I understand that at some point we gotta draw the line on what's considered left in some way, and at some point, you ARENT left any more. That's not necessarily a bad thing in some cases, but yes, we need SOME standards. I'm not andrew yang with forward after all where I think holding any position on anything outside of ranked choice voting is divisive and bad. But...again, liberals are generally left in the US. You can dislike it, but it doesnt mean it isn't true. This is trench coat and fedora crap guys.
Anyway, to react to responses:
This sub is definitely in the toilet.
I agree. I aint saying crap on there since i dont wanna get banned. But the whole mod enforced leftist circlejerk there is BEYOND toxic at this point. And after getting banned there once i dont even wanna risk commenting and getting banned again.
And then this one got a lot of responses:
Yeah we should totally be bickering amongst ourselves and tossing out the left equivalent of rino.
I get that reference, and to be fair, I am for throwing out "dino" types on the left. But by that, I mean centrist craplibs who literally LIKE Bill clinton. These guys basically seem to wanna purge anything up to and including me, and even I'm in this weird thin ice grey area at this point. hence why I'm taking this here rather than there.
Only an American would be reactionary enough to get offended at the Left purging itself of other reactionaries who care more about their precious institutions more than they do victims of a genocide.
Ok, can we stop calling each other reactionaries for not being pure enough and pushing back against the circlejerk? Let's remind ourselves of the definition here according to google:
(of a person or a set of views) opposing political or social liberalization or reform.
"reactionary attitudes toward women's rights"
It has nothing to do with people reacting negatively to leftists being self righteous jerks.
Damn, what are the chances an American would be on a subreddit from an American podcaster? You read a whole bunch of shit into this that isn’t me. But your high horse condescension has got you high as a fucking kite. I understand.
It’s not all that bad that “purging” is happening on the sub. I appreciate the reflections on a current day front and center coverage of an amoral, decrepit, colonialist project. I just think the whole project of purging is off topic for this sub. Just instead of hearing about news and current events, organizing and strategies, philosophy etc, from a leftist perspective it’s sophomoric foaming at the mouth at l*berals. I get it, we hate liberals. Yeah, got it. But it’s all very performative.
THANK YOU. Finally, some sanity. Idk how long this guy is gonna last giving a hot take like that, but yeah. It's ridiculous. And the worst thing is, i dont even consider the podcaster in question a "leftist". Like me, he's in that weird social democratic adjacent umbrella.
You do realize that "liberal" subreddits such as worldnews have been kicking out leftists as well, right?
Ok i dont go to those kinds of subs because they're TOO lib for me (like, democratic party sycophants), but i dont post on them for a reason. Because the amount of gatekeeping and obnoxiousness there too is problematic. Thats why im an enlightened centrist, i hate BOTH of these guys.
Either way, its very well possible they deserved a ban if they act like they do everywhere else they're in mixed company with people who dont think like them.
Watch me contribute anything to worldnews, lmao /s. My point in kind.
Me too buddy, me too.
Your point is moot. The liberal subreddits started this shit, so the leftists don't think liberals should get to contribute to leftists subreddits either then.
As the enlightened centrist, this is where I end up not being able to contribute ANYWHERE because both factions are acting like mental children.
I mean this is the exact problem with reddit these days. Youre either a liberal, or a leftist, and often not in between. I guess im allowed on that sub as the mod recognizes me as that weird in between. but yeah I fail these gatekeepy purity tests too.
It's just obnoxious. Even with this community splitting in two with libs making their own sub, i mean, i post MORE on that as im less afraid of mod reprisals, but let's face it, i dont get along with either. it's why i started calling myself the enlightened centrist. One person called me that since i kinda sit literally like 50% between each of these guys and I just stand by my opinion.
My point stands. When joke of a subreddit worldnews went militantly pro-Israel I no longer engaged with it and didn’t turn every other subreddit into my reaction to that.
Yeah i dont even know about that, because i dont post on mainstream subs. I kinda stopped after they were all astroturfed after 2016. Enlightened centrists seek safe harbor from astroturfing too. Communities like this should be, and used to be inclusive, ya know?
You should've seen the anti war, and endless war subreddits. After October 7th they were all over them it was unbearable. They finally cleaned it up though.
Yeah, again, I hate both sides.
A new comment thread:
Liberals should even support the Palestinian cause
Not really. Palestinians are illiberal ideologically. We dont really like them or their belief system much. We actually kinda feel more sympathetic to israel. However, I would agree that any sane person should be anti genocide and anti war crimes. Seriously, we need to hold our own accountable for this crap, and this is where we need nuance.
Still, these leftists go WAY further into full on support for palestinian nationalism and terrorism apologia, and it's cringe. And the liberal left should oppose that.
Exactly. Leftism (and even liberalism, when applied correctly) are inherently universalist.
We see this beginning all the way with Kant's writings on perpetual peace and global cooperation. When one group can be so dominated by another, then we're excluding that principle of universal human rights. And that's a posture that only fascists should be willing to take.
And thats why I have the views I do. In the larger conflict I am pro israel over pro palestine. HOWEVER, this does not exclude the possibility (and at this point the moral imperative) of criticizing the current regime in israel for their super uncool war crimes.
Ya know? And that's where i think the liberal position is. It's like, okay, so we support israel in theory. But that doesnt excuse netanyahu of war crimes. You know what I'm saying? This conflict is complex in that sense. It's like...with the war on terror, the behavior practiced at abu ghraib was horrible and shouldnt be supported. But that doesnt mean im gonna stop supporting the US and start defending fricking al qaeda, ya know? There's so much room for nuance its intellectually dishonest to pigeon hole people here.
Liberals absolutely love claiming they are the left, masquerading as the left.
Liberals are conservatives, not the left.
Liberals are left in western society. Yes, some liberals have more in common with conservatives than even socdems on some issues. Ive criticized and gatekept them too. But again, leftist gatekeeping is irritating. We're clearly using two definitions of left here. Left generally means associated with democrats. Liberals is considered the opposite of conservative. Id prefer the term progressive as a more direct foil to the term conservative, and that's where I gatekeep. I mean, we should be for progress. Liberals can be conservatives if they support the status quo. Progressives are never conservative. And leftists are so "progressive" they're off the scale and dangerous.
That's how I see it. So can we stop this crap now?
To this day, one of the simplest ways to tell the difference between a liberal and a leftist is to ask the person you're talking to how they feel about capitalism and America's foreign policy.
If they sound similar or fundamentally identical to a Republican on these two subjects, you're talking to a liberal.
I swear, in a hypothetical presidential election where the two candidates were Donald Trump and a generic communist, most liberals would yank the (R) lever so hard it would break.
And thats the thing. Yes, we're reformists. We dont want so much change it breaks the entire system, burns it down, and leads to purges. We think your behavior is quite frankly "illiberal".
Again, you're not just "left". You're "far left". You're the part of the political spectrum where the horse shoe makes you closer to trump than it does to us.
But anyway thats they dont like us, they think that we're closer to the GOP than to them. In some ways that's an indictment of their positions on things and how extreme THEY are.
And this is coming from the dude who has made this exact argument that centrist dems are closer to the GOP than to me...a "socdem."
Like, really. On economic policy, yeah sometimes libs ARE closer to them than to us. Remember clinton's welfare reform? Sure, sure. I can concede that partially, but at the same time it's like....you guys are so so fricking far left that you're just on some other plane of existence. I mean remember my likert scale. Conservatives, 6, liberals, 4, leftists, 2. But if you're a 1 (what id call a communist), and im a 3, and then bill clinton is a 5, and reagan is a 6, then yeah we're kinda gonna be pushed to support reagan over you. That's not necessarily an endorsement of clinton, it's just a rejection of your extremism. We're gonna wanna protect democracy from the illiberal forces at the gates no matter who they are.
The immoral are showing their ass all over the place smdh. Excusing the purposeful targeting of children is evil and no POS politician who does it deserves any credibility
At the very least, at least they are becoming irrelevant. Because once you get this far left, no one cares any more. They're so extreme not even I wanna deal with them and i consider myself to be on the very left flank of liberalism. I go as far as is reasonable, and then no more, because going further is insane and harmful.
That's why I have my purity tests. And keep in mind the most compatible candidate on them is like in the ballpark of 63% of my views weighted by priority at this point. With the competition to that being in the 50s. So not great. No one is really moving my heart here. But hey, im gonna vote for one of them regardless.
I mean, nuance exists. Rejecting one extreme doesnt mean support for the other. And like always, my views are what they are, take them or leave them, I don't care any more.
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