Discussing differences between liberals and leftists on Palestine/protests

 So, after I got banned today, the person who banned me from one of my favorite communities posted this comment on the top of the thread justifying it, and presumably other bans on the topic at hand:

I see people asking in comments so will put this here to make it easy.  The students go out to get supplies like food and water but they're denied re-entry so thus no food and water.  Think of it like a siege.

I know there are a lot of divisive issues but there really is a binary choice here.  You either support genocide and thus support the police action of committing acts of violence against peaceful protesters.  You agree that the protesters need to be discredited and othered as David is attempting to do here.

Or you don’t support genocide and see this student uprising as a brave and moral stance.  Following in the traditions of students before them who protested the Vietnam War for example and occupied the same buildings.

This isn’t a debate on marginal tax rates this is a “are you for or against a genocide” and everyone needs to take a side.  The ones who refuse to take a side have still made a choice.

David has a large platform and instead of setting up a fund to help these kids pay for bail he's mocking them. He's made his choice.

 

 Yes, this is referring the David Pakman tweet from the other post from today. Yes, I wrote my own take, largely agreeing with Pakman. 

And effectively, I see this as a ban on liberals in this thread. This is something that this sub has been creeping toward for a while. It used to be the sane middle ground for me between the obnoxious neolibs a la David Pakman's community on the one hand, and the batcrap insane "leftists" who ban anyone for stepping out of line on the other. As you know, I'm in a weird zone where I'm too left for most liberals, but also too right for most leftists. This community used to be open both to liberals and leftists, but after October 7th, it just went batcrap insane over gaza, and got more and more authoritarian on bans. A few days ago I protested new rules stating they were an effective ban on liberals, and it seems like, in this thread, they're effectively banning the liberal stance. Why do I say this?

Because here's how I see it. A core ideological difference between liberals and leftists is support for the rule of law. Liberals are institutionalists. They support current institutions, and working within them to reform the system. We don't always agree. I believe there are at least two distinct camps within liberals. Right liberals, aka, the third wayers or "neolibs" are hard centrists who have a much more conservative orientation on change. I've criticized them broadly over many many things. And my big issue is that they're basically just what conservatives would be if conservatives were sane. They largely support the status quo, and are very reluctant to support changes at all. When they do, they support incremental changes and use buzzwords like "pragmatic" to frame their behavior. They see themselves as the "adults in the room" who are "reasonable" and tend to have self obnoxious and self righteous takes that come off as more smarmy and full of themselves than anything.

But then you have more left liberals or "progressive" liberals. These guys tend to see more problems within society and want larger scale changes. They still work within the system to accomplish those changes. But, they might see the problems as deeper and require more system wide changes than the former liberals support. They are generally social democratic or some variation thereof, supporting ideas like medicare for all, free college, a green new deal, or in my case, a UBI. 

However, the common thread that makes both of these guys "liberal" is the fact that they support the tenets of liberal democracy, ie, rule of law, constitutional rights, working within the system, etc. 

However, let's contrast this with "leftists". Leftists don't support these things. They are anti the current system. They see it as fundamentally unjust and believe that we need to fight against it. They see liberals who support the system in theory as "fascist", claiming "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds." They tend to support direct action as a way to achieving their goals. This means protests, it also means operating outside of the confines of the law.

The people I often condemn on this blog in relation with palestine are leftists. They're radical extremists who believe in shouting people down, and obstructing roads, and protesting on private property, and they believe that their cause justifies all of this. They don't even try to cooperate with the law, they are antagonistic to it, and it seems like they can't peacefully protest without getting in confrontation with the cops. Btw, on cops, these guys have the sentiment of ACAB, believing that all cops are bad (or the other word), by virtue of them all being supportive of the systems of oppression as they see them that make up our current system. 

This guy is a self described leftist. And his take is basically drawing a line. You're with him, or you're with the systems of oppression. His literally sees it as that binary. You either support the protesters, who are doing illegal things, but for a good cause, or you support the system, including the genocide that this other country is committing. No nuance, no nothing. Either you're 100% with him, or with the enemy.

And I'm sorry, I bring a certain sense of nuance to the conversation that these leftists don't like. I'll cede the genocide argument to them. I mean, I've been following them for a while and the amount of disgusting stuff I see out of gaza should turn even the most moderate liberals against israel somewhat. And it does seem like, given Israel is already making plans for vacation resorts in gaza, that they seem to intend to take the land over and develop it for israeli use. And I do think their actions can be reasonably construed as a "slow genocide." 

And it's one of the reasons I've kinda turned on the Israeli government here. They had my sympathy and support after October 7th, but as they start committing pure savagery in their war against hamas, even I have to say, yeah, no, this isn't right.

And I don't think many liberals disagree. We're seeing even the most mainstream voices in congress liek Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer critical of Israel. Biden himself has been criticizing Netanyahu too. I mean, no one really likes what's going on with Gaza, and as a liberal who supports that "rules based order", I dont think that Israel should be allowed to just continue flouting the rules. Not committing genocide is a big rule to follow.

At the same time, that doesn't mean that when "leftists" do their "direct action" bullcrap, that we should be okay with that either. We live in a civilized society with rules, as Winston says in John Wick, without them, we're no better than the animals. And that's true. What makes humans and their morality better than that of animals is the ability to reason, and to make rules. But the left sees everything as power relations and sees the inherent order as unjust. And ironically, all too often, when they tend to take over governments and get power, they tend to repress all dissenters, because to them rules really are about power relations. Which is why so many leftists end up turning their countries into illiberal regimes.

And it's also why, whenever they take over subreddits, they inevitably ban all liberals. Because they want to suppress any take that doesn't align with theirs. And that's what's happening here. 

This is why I can't stand leftists at this point. Leftists are psychos. They're just red fascists. And this guy literally has a mindset of you either fully support the protesters and their revolutionary actions even if they violate the rules, or you support genocide. Which is a nonsense take that doesn't allow nuance, but basically, it's effectively a ban on liberal takes, and a tacit endorsement of leftist ideology. 

Ironically, they also seem like they're creeping toward the matter of banning people for not caring about Palestine enough. With me, and my liberal take, you can't force people to care, and yes, i do see this issue as a matter of disagreement. There are no red lines with me over this issue. it's just another issue. heck as I said, it's not the most important issue either. But for these guys, it IS the most important issue. And it IS an issue where either you fully support them, or you're with the economy. 

So basically, unless you're fully on board with them, and agree with them, and their methods, and make this a "red line" so to speak, and support the protesters unquestioningly, you're a "chud" to use their lingo and can screw off and get banned. 

Yeah. That's where discourse is at in 2024. 

Here's the thing. These protests aren't my thing. I don't care a ton about this issue. Heck, I'm kinda with the anti obsession with this issue circlejerk of caring more about tons of other issues (keep in mind the other list I posted also came from somewhere), but you know what? I do value free speech. And I do value the first amendment. And I do support the right to protest.

However, I do believe that such protests need to be LAWFUL. And we discussed the ACLU's guidelines. You have your strongest case on public grounds, not obstructing other people. But again, leftists refuse to follow directions. it's not their strong suit. They believe that protesting in this way is ineffective and will be ignored. They dont want to be ignored. They want your attention. And they think they need to obstruct and hold private property hostage to get it. And they do get attention, but it isn't the kind of attention that endears people to their cause, it's the attention that brings in law enforcement to break it up while both liberals and conservatives alike think that you "leftists" are insane. 

Im sure there are differences on policy between liberals and conservatives on gaza. Conservatives are probably more likely to full on endorse a genocidal stance, while liberals try to be more humanitarian. But, liberals share an orientation toward a rules based order with conservatives, while leftists just go off and wanna do their own thing, not caring who they obstruct or piss off. 

You see, liberals and leftists tend to agree on this issue in theory, although leftists clearly are more hardcore and principled while we libs might be more fair weather, or recognize other concerns. But liberals and conservatives will agree that the law should be followed (note, doesn't necessarily apply to trumpers). 

And yeah. I'm a liberal. And push comes to shove, parsing all of this out, I have reason to believe I was essentially banned for having a liberal take. 

Leftists ruin everything, they really do. They can't have an online space without just repressing everyone else out of existence. They're just as bad as the fascists they claim we can't tolerate because they are themselves illiberal.

But thats the thing, leftists are just red fascists when you come down to it. They're just as illiberal and repressive, they just believe in different causes than the far right.

And this is why I've been retreating to the center on a lot of issues in the past few years. I do care about liberal democracy, and law and order, and not just crapping on the floor and smearing it on the walls to prove a point. Protest all you want, but do so LAWFULLY. Seriously, i might not always agree with the free palestine people, but I do believe that ultimately, their heart is in the right place, and they do have a point regarding the genocide of the palestinian people.And they should be free to express that.

BUT, you need to do so within a liberal framework. You just run off and do whatever you want and don't follow the rules because you have a point to make, and I'm sorry, you lose my sympathy, you do. 

And I'll accept being banned from a leftist community that can't even accept such a basic premise as "we should follow the law and not get in other peoples' way." Keep in mind my stance toward liberty based on John Stuart Mill's harm principle. Youre free to do what you want as long as you don't harm others. Youre free to swing your fist until it hits another person's nose. It's a pretty simple principle. I might be libertarian, but to once again Winston from John Wick, rules are what separates us from the animals. Act like an animal, get treated like one, what can I say?