Discussing immigration

 So, I have pretty nuanced views on immigration. And a lot of this is due to my unique political journey and worldview. I started out being fairly conservative, I got to be more liberal, but I never really embraced "leftist" takes on a lot of social issues. I always say I'm a bit more conservative on immigration without explaining what I mean, so now I figured I'd get all my views on immigration out there.

Discussing my worldview

So, as I said in the more foreign policy oriented discussions I've had recently, I accept the role of the nation state in establishing a set of rules and common morality that bounds us all. I do not believe the government should be restrictive in this sense, more aiming to prevent harm between parties, than trying to impose some extensive sense of "morality" on people, and that people should be largely left alone. 

However, I also recognize that without states, there IS no public morality that binds us. And we do have anarchy, a war against all, and while not everyone who we encounter in such a state is necessarily a danger, a lot of people probably are, and I would argue that evil does exist in the world and some people simply lack the morals that make civil society possible.

Basically, states are what makes mutual cooperation possible on a large scale and provides a space of relative safety for people to interact within. 

How this applies to immigrants

I think the question of how to approach outsiders varies from society to society. Some are going to be more welcoming, others are going to be more unwelcoming and closed. I don't really have a set value set either way. I think it's contextual based on the societies we're talking about and the specific challenges they face. 

In the US, I feel like our history of being open toward immigration, and our ability to successfully integrate several generations of immigrants into our country actually makes my stance on immigration softer than it otherwise would be. I don't really see immigration to be an inherent threat, and in some respects, I think that liberals have successfully made arguments that it strengthens the country and that most immigrants aren't a burden, but an asset.

At the same time, I could forsee environments where I'm much more weary of outsiders. I kinda understand why Israel builds walls around Gaza for example and is distrustful of palestinians being let in. Because while there are probably many good palestinians out there, the risk of terrorism that comes from that region is...yikes. And the culture clash and lack of desire to assimilate into the existing Israeli society is also...yikes. Why let people in who hate you and want you dead so they can take over your land?

As such, there is no solid answer on the question of immigration either way. And quite frankly, I'm quite agnostic on the concept, as long as the immigrants in question aren't causing problems in the countries they're trying to immigrate to.

Okay, so I seem a bit liberal on immigration given my American context, how am I more conservative?

Well, here's the thing. I think that the decision to let in immigrants is really something that is up for states to decide. I do not like open borders, neoliberalism, and would support controlled immigration rather than unfettered immigration. 

I am not a fan of illegal immigration. In principle, I believe illegal immigrants should be deported and returned to their home countries. 

While I believe in birthright citizenship, I do not believe it should be applied to the children of two illegal immigrants as this creates a huge problem that makes deportation to be harder and less humane. Children of illegal immigrants should generally be deported with the immigrants themselves (assuming they're minors). 

I believe immigrants should generally integrate themselves into society and try to not be a burden on those who were born here. I believe immigrants should learn English. While immigrants can speak their native languages amongst themselves and other willing parties, at some point, either citizens of the US are going to have to learn other languages, or the immigrants can just learn our language in order to converse and do business with us. And I am a fan of the latter. 

Why should citizens of a country be forced to go out of their way to accommodate immigrants? They shouldn't. Immigrants should do the bare minimum to adapt themselves to our way of life. If you want to live here, you should follow our laws and learn our language and try to integrate to at least the minimum extent necessary to not burden citizens.

And of course, while I believe every citizen deserves a right to a basic income, universal healthcare, I absolutely do not support giving these things to illegal immigrants at all. Legal immigrants it can be debated, and I would lean toward them having a more work requirement based version of such programs. 

The fact is, I don't think the kinds of expansive universal safety nets that I propose are compatible with giving them to tons of immigrants, and especially illegal immigrants. Legal immigrants the issue can be debated more and you can reach conclusions either way.

Gee you sound very right wing, how are you actually a liberal on this issue?

What label you apply to me is subjective, but I will say this. Given where we are with illegal immigration in this country, I do have nuanced views.

While IN PRINCIPLE I'd support deporting illegal immigrants, I kind of recognize that because of birthright citizenship, as well as the significant logistical issues with deportation and the humanitarian crises that this would cause with splitting up families, that that's actually a policy that sounds better on paper into practice.

At the end of the day, illegal immigrants have been here for years, they have families, many of whom are US citizens, and trying to deport them all is inhumane and just not going to happen. I can have an ideal view, while also compromising that view to meet reality. And that's where I'm at with this.

I think the best decision as far as illegal immigrants that are actually here goes is to give them amnesty, similar to what Ronald Reagan did in the 1980s. 

So basically I support amnesty for most illegals who are already here, given no further crime was committed. 

I also do lean toward the idea in normative views toward immigrants that most are not a threat or a burden on the country. I dont believe theyre all here on welfare, I don't really believe that most of them are criminals other than their original act of coming here without permission. I believe they largely have positive contributions, and to some extent do the work that many americans wouldnt wanna do themselves (and given my anti work stance toward jobs, I view filling job positions no one else wants to do with immigrants as a valid solution for businesses to employ). At the same time I do think there's SOME validity to the idea that maybe they take some jobs Americans would wanna do (at certain wages at least) and drive down wages (see: construction), but at the same time, given I believe in moving away from jobs, I'm not inclined to see that as any different than a robot taking a job. The fact is, I'm not a jobist, I dont really seek to preserve jobs, and while I kinda understand where the trumpers are coming from here, I think they're missing the forest for the trees with hyper fixating on this issue. A lot of them also sound really racist.

Also, I think Trump's wall is a massive waste of time and money. It doesn't even protect us from the more criminal elements associated with illegal immigration like human trafficking and drug cartels, because those guys just build tunnels anyway. 

And honestly, I reject racism and the whole "great replacement" thing. In the US context, we've generally been pretty good at integrating immigrants into the country, and let's face it, most Americans here are probably the descendants of immigrants. I don't really think we face any long term cultural threat from immigrants at this time. And as far as race and skin color, I LITERALLY DONT CARE. Like, I don't care what color people are, I'm not interested in preserving "whiteness" or whatever. If people wanna have mixed babies or whatever, or over time people become brown I literally dont give a crap. Grow up, it's not 1850 any more, and your views are embarrassing. 

Overall

All in all, I'm kind of moderate on the issue. I have some conservative views, some liberal views. I think my views are just common sense. They make sense within my own worldview and both sides probably have issues with them.

Liberals and leftists think I have scary conservative ideas like not giving birthright citizenship to illegals, wanting to deny them social services, and expecting immigrants to conform and not make themselves a burden on the existing populace, but then the right will disagree with me too because I literally think the solution to our current illegal immigration crisis is ceding the issue, I'm not a fan of Trump's wall, and I actually reject actual racism and largely have culturally liberal/libertarian views toward immigrants.

As I said, I'm kind of nuanced and neutral on the issue, and I'm pretty much willing to negotiate with either side to some extent. I could, for example, strike a deal with conservatives to be less immigration friendly in order to get a UBI and universal healthcare.

Heck, a lot of left wing immigration advocates actually dislike my stance on UBI and universal healthcare because they think it could mean a more conservative shift toward immigration. After all, while my social programs would work if given to all citizens by virtue of being born in the US and being a member of the community, having a universal safety net might make us less willing to accept new people in.

Ideally, I would say immigrants can come in, not give them that stuff, and then expect them to work for however many years it takes to become a citizen, and then...do whatever. I mean, I actually think immigration would work with UBI and my anti work ambitions if immigrants genuinely wanna do the jobs we don't wanna do and are willing to work their way into the country. I'm not opposed to immigrants doing those jobs if citizens don't want to and the wages citizens ask for isn't sustainable for the company involved. But if we wanna restrict immigration so citizens can do those jobs and get paid better, well, that's fine too. I don't really care. As long as the sausage gets made and everything we do is as voluntary as possible. 

Ultimately, I am going to say that my economic views come first, and I would say much of my stance on immigration is designed around my economic views at this point. And obviously if I have to choose between UBI and a more liberal immigration policy, I'm going to choose UBI. A lot of liberals might hate me for that, but they can stay mad about it. 

So yeah, that's my overall stance on immigration. I have some left wing views, I have some right wing views. On a traditional spectrum I'm kinda all over the place, but I'd call myself a moderate, and I'm flexible on the issue where I could go either way depending on what concessions I got in return. I would probably avoid the extreme far left and far right on the issue though. As of now, I would say I generally approve of Biden and the democratic party's centrist policies on such issues, and I think my ideas are rational and fit well into my overall worldview, even if it seems like an a la carte thing to the untrained eye.